{{Olivier DAUVERS}}
_ What can we do with the 5 to 7% excess production? Burn it to avoid dissemination and to protect the brand? Sell it off via a discount chain to dispose of it all? Neither of these solutions is profitable. Brand centres allow the manufacturer to sell his stock directly and at the same time be in control of his brand image.



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ We are developers, with two outlet centres in Germany. We also develop brands in outlet centres (Puma, Airfield). The retail world trend has changed. Wholesalers have to become retailers otherwise they are losing customers. They have been more productive than in the past therefore they are now investing into outlets to get rid of their stocks. On the other hand, retailers look for a competitive environment in the centres when choosing to sell their brands. Retailers now need more multiple factory outlet centres to sell their merchandise. Some retailers, such as H&M and Zara have a system within their stores where they sell their stocks at discounts. For others, upper medium and medium up, the distribution channel is different.



{{Juan-Marcos GABAS}}
_ Distribution chains are changing their collections increasingly frequently. They use outlets to occupy an additional profitable space in the sales chain, to access a new distribution channel and a population that has not been a priority target. Outlets enable the brand image to be kept under control and they give a direct knowledge of the market. They enable chains to spin off the brand and to carry out a market test at a lower cost. If the concept fundamentals are strictly applied, profitability of brand centres is less in comparison with traditional retailers.



{{Alain SALZMAN}}
_ Even if brand outlets are more sophisticated (architecture, etc.) than factory outlets, both are built on the same fundamental principles – brand names, a price for the consumer and selling off the previous year’s excess stock in advantageous conditions for the manufacturer. Sales per square metre are comparable for traditional shopping centres and brand outlets, the average for the Marques Avenue centres is 3500 € / m².







{{Olivier DAUVERS}}
_ Is the increase in the number of projects in comparison with the available brands a threat to the fundamental principles of the concept?



{{Alain SALZMAN}}
_ There are a lot projects announced but the number of centres that are actually built are less numerous. In France, due to the « loi Royer » (Royer bill), which became the « loi Raffarin » (Raffarin bill), the centres have developed gradually. Today the risk is less, thanks to the fact that the field has become more professional and the fundamental principles have been observed (brand and price).



{{Juan-Marcos GABAS}}
_ There are abundant projects in Spain, too, but they are often slowed down by two players – the promoters, who are exacting with respect to the location of the site and the brands, who are careful to protect their network and to be consistent in their sales strategies.



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ There is a differentiation between the approach of each outlet centre and what the customer needs to be attracted. We have a further demand for factory outlets because of the change in the retailer industry.



{{Olivier DAUVERS}}
_ What is the average level of branded excess stock? What levels of excess stock determine if the brand is well managed or badly managed?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ It depends on the brands and the philosophy of the company. Some brands encounter major problems and have a lot of overstock and others less. If a retailer and/or brand produces more than 2-3 % of overstock, he is not performing well.



{{Olivier DAUVERS}}
_ What is the result of benchmarking between the brand centres and other stock outlet channels (in particular Internet)?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ If a brand would start an outlet online business sale, the internet would drive the same sales as a big store.



{{Olivier DAUVERS}}
_ Apart from the volumes of goods sold, what are the differences in marketing and in brand image?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ As a retailer, you need to find a clean dynamic way to get rid of the overstock. That is why a factory outlet is an excellent solution for brands. But some like Gucci or Prada burn their unsold merchandise to keep the exclusivity of the brand.



{{Juan-Marcos GABAS}}
_ In Spain, the on-line sales market is relatively narrow and is used mainly for services (travel, music etc.). Internet, like the discount outlet system, raises the problem of the uncertainty as to where the product ends up, whereas de-stocking provides increase brand awareness and visibility.



{{Olivier DAUVERS}}
_ In France, cumulated turnover of « ventesprivées.com » and the sixty-eight sites operating on the same market amounts to almost 400 million Euros …to the detriment of the brand centres?



{{Alain SALZMAN}}
_ Sales in the centres have not dropped. Internet has, in fact, raised consumer awareness to different methods of buying, as a complement to brand centres.
But Internet is no good to those people who do not have it, who do not want to pay on-line, or who want to try out the products. In fact, brand centres grew up because of the brands’ dissatisfaction with the discount chains. Internet operates just like a discount chain, selling off high volumes, but without any control of brand image. Committing to large scale on-line sales could become an irreversible move for a brand, who would then not be able to sell at normal prices.



{{Olivier DAUVERS}}
_ So Internet would provide too much visibility?



{{Alain SALZMAN}}
_ The argument of the brand centres’ responsibility in managing overstocks and brand image is not valid for on-line sales. When Marques Avenue wanted to court the favour of customers in Neuilly, the 16th and 17th arrondissements of Paris, we did not set up in Neuilly, but in the Ile Saint-Denis, to minimise the risk of the target consumers coming across this offer.

{{{Le secteur des centres de magasins d’usine et villages de marques en Europe}}}

-*{{Les magasins d’usine et villages de marques : temples du shopping touristique. Panorama de l’évolution des centres de magasins d’usine et villages de marques en Europe}}
_ Source : Caroline LAMY, experte Magdus. Article publié dans le numéro spécial « Tourisme et shopping » (1re partie : Luxe, mode et bonnes affaires) de la revue « Espaces, tourisme et loisirs » n°269, avril 2009.

{{{Plus d’infos sur le secteur en Europe}}}
_
[{{Notes de conjoncture européenne}}->http://www.magdus.fr/Fonctionnement-des-centres-de]
_ {Source : Synthèses semestrielles de l’Observatoire européen des centres de marques et magasins d’usine}

-*{{Ouverture des centres de marques européens le dimanche : situation et position de leurs dirigeants}}
_ {Source : Observatoire européen des centres de marques et magasins d’usine, juillet 2007}

-* {{Innovation, centres de marques et magasins d’usine}}
_ {Source : Observatoire européen des centres de marques et magasins d’usine, 2007}

-* {{Centres de marques : les nouvelles approches du concept en Europe}}
_ {Source : Observatoire européen des centres de marques et magasins d’usine, 2004}



-*{{Profil type du consommateur anglais}}
_ {Source : Observatoire Economique CCI Troyes et Aube, juillet 2004}

-*[{{Toutes les études…}}->http://www.magdus.fr/Analyse-et-developpement-du]

{{{Le marché de l’habillement en Europe}}}

_
Le marché suisse du prêt-à-porter
_ {Source: Ambassade de France en Suisse – Mission économique, octobre 2008}

_
Le marché du prêt-à-porter féminin en Irlande
_ {Source: Ambassade de France en Irlande – Mission économique, août 2008}

_
Le marché de l’habillement en Lituanie
_ {Source: Fiche synthèse sur le marché de l’habillement en Lituanie, avril 2006}

Quelques observations sur le marché allemand de l’habillement
_ {Source : Evelyne Chaballier, directrice du département études et conjoncture de l’IFM (Institut Français de la Mode), 2005.}




{{{Plus d’infos sur le marché de l’habillement en Europe}}}

Quelle part de leur budget les ménages européens consacrent-ils aux dépenses en habillement et chaussures? (Mars 2007)

————

_ Contact : [->accueil@magdus.com]

-* François Baroin, Maire, Ville de Troyes
-* Christine Baudchon, Directeur du réseau, Zapa
-* Alessandro Bedeschi, General Secretary, European Association of Fashion Retailers
-* Jean-Loup Besquent, Directeur filiale outlet europe, CWF / Vecopri
-* R

{{Caroline LAMY}}
_ Factory shops adjoining production sites have existed since the 1930s, but the modern concept of brand centres did not emerge until 1974, in the United States and 1984, in France. The sector did not begin to become truly professional until ten years later, with McArthurGlen, Concepts & Distribution, etc. By the end of the 1990s, brand centres had literally exploded.
_ The first, minimal, generation started in 1984 with the « Usine » at Roubaix. Factory outlets were set up in industrial towns and the goods they offered were disparate. The brands were inconspicuous and customers, mostly families, came because of the prices. The architecture was minimalist (warehouses), there were no services and advertising was by word of mouth.
_ In 1993, the second generation arrived, underpinned by professionals (Marques Avenue at Troyes). They emphasised the brands and guaranteed price mark-downs. The centres were laid out like traditional shops and there was media advertising; but the target population was still families from industrial towns and urban areas.
_ The third generation appeared in the United Kingdom at the end of the 1990s, marking a new breakthrough – increased brand selection and enhancement, improved shopper comfort, customer loyalty schemes in a market that was becoming extremely competitive. New centres were set up in major tourist areas and capitals, in order to attract tourists.
_ The fourth generation, which also started in the United Kingdom around 2000, concentrates on top-of-the-range products. Operators have created centres dedicated to certain types of products or themes, and combine leisure and tourist activities, referred to as « funshopping ». These centres meet High Quality Environmental standards.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ You often find the same operators present in all the different generations of the concept. How did the concept develop in Europe?



{{Caroline LAMY}}
_ Ten years after the creation of the « Usine » in Roubaix, factory outlets emerged across Europe, from the west to the east. In 1993, there were 8 centres in Europe, and today there are 150, or a total trading surface area of two million square metres.
The United Kingdom, Italy, Spain and France are the market leaders. Brand centres exist mainly in a large areas in the centre/west of Europe, where there is high through traffic and high population density. The number of projects is exploding – over 2.3 million square metres are currently at the project stage.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ Do any of the second generation projects still exist?



{{Caroline LAMY}}
_ Operators tend to adopt the fourth generation concept, in order to distinguish themselves from their competitors. However, there are certain cultural differences, which may be an obstacle; in France, for example, « funshopping » has not been spontaneously accepted.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ Who are the operators today?



{{Caroline LAMY}}
_ Today there are over sixty operators, the leader being McArthur Glen. The six European leaders share 36 % of the activity, but all operators are increasing the number of their centres. We can quote some key dates – in 1993, the Marques Avenue centre at Troyes opened, and Clarks Village in the United Kingdom. In 1995 McArthurGlen entered the market. From 2000 onwards, investors became increasingly present in the market and in 2007, Unibail and Rodamco Europe merged.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ What are the major current development trends in this brand centre sector?



{{Caroline LAMY}}
_ It could be said that there are six major trends:
– player diversification – new players are emerging, those who are extending their activities (Ikea, Unibail), to which you can add local operators and investors (banks, insurance companies, pension funds, etc.)
– marketing policy – the market offering is becoming more diversified and is going up-range. Operators are insisting on high architectural quality in the new theme centres (tourism and leisure) and are seeking to play a role in sustainable development.
– location – centres are being set up along major routes and in tourist areas and major European cities.
– a new method of distribution – apart from relieving excess stock, the centres are true business areas.
– brands and the regions – previously the Brands tended to neglect brand shops. Now the centres generate throughput, which is stimulating interest from the brands and from the regions.
– competition is growing between the operators, but also perhaps with other distribution channels, such as internet.



{{Discussions with the floor}}



{{Neil CHAPMAN}}, Chameleon Retail
_ As generations move on, what type of buildings are developers constructing, strip malls or village type outlets?



{{Caroline LAMY}}
_ The « village » concept appears to predominate over strip malls, but each operator has his own strategy; Concepts & Distribution, unlike Mac Arthur Glen, does not build villages.



{{Alexandre SEJOURNE}} (Real-Estate Director, Marques Avenue)
_ We should beware of « seeking out every square metre ». This would lead to centres being isolated in small collectivities. Centres that are too big do not enhance the brands. We must not deceive the consumer with the attractive villages.



{{Barbara HORATZ}} (BVS Outlet villages)
_ There is not one single architectural solution. In Germany, for example, consumers appreciate steel and glass structures just as much as the village concept.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ Is a village more likely to reflect local features and to be integrated into the environment?



{{Barbara HORATZ}} (BVS)
_ There is room for several concepts.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ With the surface area increasing, is not the problem a shortfall of brands for the centres?



{{Alexandre SEJOURNE}} (Real Estate Director, Marques Avenue)
_ We have to observe marketing levels after the centres have opened. At Nantes, Usine Center on the Atlantis area, where there is high quality architecture, closed after six months. The centres need the brands.



{{Neil CHAPMAN}}, Chameleon Retail
_ In terms of architecture, are village centres and covered malls mostly built?



{{Robert VAN DEN HEUVEL}} (BVS Outlet villages)
_ Outlet centre architecture depends on the country so as all the shopping centres. Thus there is no definite trend.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ How does Nike view this multiplication of projects?



{{Robert VAN DEN HEUVEL}} (BVS Outlet villages)
_ Nike can be found in every centre and generally do well in all the markets.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ Will 20% of unsold stock be enough to meet the potential demand associated with the announced development of these centres? No doubt they will need more goods and more unsold stock!



{{From the floor}}
_ Brands that only use the Outlet channel are a danger for brand centres, and the centres should make sure that they do not host such brands.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ Is there a minimum size for a centre?



{{Alexandre SEJOURNE}}
_ That depends on the country. In Italy, the large centres are profitable because the share of consumption for clothing is 8 %. In France, it is only 4 %, so centres in France prefer to grow gradually.



{{Robert VAN DEN HEUVEL}} (BVS Outlet villages)
_ Nowadays, a minimum of 15000 to 25000 square metres is necessary for an outlet centre, otherwise customers will not want to drive a certain distance to visit it.



{{Cédric MOULIN}} (VF Europe)
_ For VF, it is not the size or the village concept that counts, but the location in relation to through traffic and the trading area. What is more, if the market offering is « diluted » because there are too many tenants, customers are not really sure why they are coming to the centres.



{{Bruno ROGOWSKI}}
_ How does a brand make its choice?



{{Cédric MOULIN}} (VF Europe)
_ A brand selects the most dynamic centres, not necessarily the largest ones. Some centres are too focused on the French consumer, and their advertising is in French – the brands are looking for more exposure.



{{Christian GARCIA}} (Managing Director of Mango worldwide)
_ Are developers interested in setting up concepts in the Middle East?



{{Robert VAN DEN HEUVEL}} (BVS Outlet villages)
_ It depends on the capacity but also on future opportunities like in China. Currently, we are too much of a small player to invest in the Middle East.



{{Neil CHAPMAN}}, Chameleon Retail
_ From a retailer’s perspective, one needs to find the owner lasting in the long term and investing in the right scheme (marketing, size, brands).



{{Robert VAN DEN HEUVEL}} (BVS Outlet villages)
_ The local knowledge and expertise are crucial.



{{Christian GARCIA}} (Managing Director of Mango worldwide)
_ We opened an outlet centre in Dubai and one in the Philippines but the local knowledge is missing even though they have the capital and well designed outlets.



{{Cédric MOULIN}} (VF Europe)
_ We have to open up to Eastern Europe. It is true, too, that some very nice concepts are being developed in India and in Dubai.



{{From the floor}} (McArthurGlen representative)
_ India is a booming market. The big brands are in the big shopping malls. The question is who are the tenants ready to settle in an outlet in India?



{{Christian GARCIA}} (Managing Director of Mango worldwide)
_ India is indeed a good market but in Dubai there are also many opportunities.

In January 2009, the magdus team has interviewed the marketing managers of several factory outlet centres in France to collect their balance sheet of year 2008. This synthesis brings to light the big tendencies of the activity of the centres in 2008 with regard to the balance sheet of year 2007. In an unfavourable cyclical context, in particular during the second half-year 2008, it seems that the majority of the Factory Outlet Centres had a good activity during year 2008.

{If you are interested in reading the results of the study in English, please contact us: accueil@magdus.com}

Les centres de marques ne fonctionnent pas tous à l’identique.


Leur pouvoir d’attraction, et donc leur impact, diffèrent en fonction de leur plancher commercial, de la densité des marques attractives, de l’environnement dans lequel ils s’insèrent (…)


Toutefois, l’observation des magasins d’usine et centres de marques européens permet de dégager une tendance générale : autour du concept de base, se greffent désormais maintes activités ludiques, de divertissement et de loisirs.

Pour éclairer votre point de vue sur l’évolution du concept, vous pouvez télécharger les études suivantes:

-* Innovation, centres de marques et magasins d’usine (2007)

-* Centres de marques : les nouvelles approches du concept en Europe (2004)

-* Analyse et du développement du concept magasin d’usine et de négoce : situation comparée des centres Troyes, Roubaix et Talange (2001) – Synthèse

-* Analyse et développement du concept magasin d’usine et de négoce : situation comparée des centres Troyes, Roubaix et Talange (2001) – Etude complète

Pour toutes informations complémentaires, vous pouvez nous joindre par courriel : [->accueil@magdus.com]

————

-* François Baroin, Maire, Ville de Troyes
-* Christine Baudchon, Directeur du réseau, Zapa
-* Alessandro Bedeschi, General Secretary, European Association of Fashion Retailers
-* Jean-Loup Besquent, Directeur filiale outlet europe, CWF / Vecopri
-* R

{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ I am the Senior Editor for Textilwirtschaft, Europe’s leading weekly trade magazine for the retail and fashion industry.



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ Previously Director of Gap, I also worked for Mc Donald’s, did some work for Habitat and founded my own business for the German market: Retail Development Group. His objective is to help wholesalers to become retailers. Our focus is to provide consultancy and to develop factory outlets in Germany.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ Germany is often quoted as the land of ‘too much retail space’. Since the reunification of Germany, space rose from 70 to 150 million square metres. Part of the retail spending went down from 35 % in 1995 to 29 % in 2006. For over 10 years, Germany did not have a good turnover except in 2002. This year, in 2007, the German Retail Association calls for another year of stagnation or slight decline due to the high value of added taxes (now 19%). Germany hosts 400 shopping centres with 24 new shopping centres next year.



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ With 82 million inhabitants and 7 major centres, Germany’s development of factory outlets is slow in comparison to other countries such as the UK, where there are already 27 centres for 60 million inhabitants. Yet, performance in the German outlet centres is deemed fairly good (for instance Metzingen).



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ Will there be any changes for new developments?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ In Germany, there is a strong lobbying from department store companies against further development of factory outlet centres. In the Northern part of Germany, Bremen, the 9 years old outlet centre, has experienced phenomenal sales with all the big brands (Nike, Adidas, recently Esprit…) and a stock room of over 1000 sq. metres. This project is almost completed. In Otwurp, a 5000 square metre of selling area hopes to expand but the permit has not been granted by the state yet. The strong lobby from department stores is a massive obstacle. In Otwurp, there is a new legislation which forbids factory outlet centres to establish in a city comprising less than 1000 inhabitants and requires both local and regional consent.



{{De la salle}}
_ What about other states?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ The overall permit process is a difficult and complicated process. Other states face the same difficulty as in Otwurp (Hessen). In lower Saxony, the State Minister has yet to grant one permit to the winning bidder.



{{From the floor}}
_ Is it through legal consent or through local communities that the permit is granted?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ It used to be a local community issue but it is now the state law that decides on granting the permit. All state governments are proceeding to prevent out of town developments.



{{From the floor}}
_ As a marketing specialist, and from a consumer point of view, we want the factory outlet to open even if it will be more difficult to establish them in Germany than in other countries. Germany’s centres will be best taking into account its past experience in factory outlet.



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ German customers do appreciate outlets but it will take some years to develop. It is all about the legal situation and its consents. Italy has 17 outlet centres, Spain has 12, France has 15…



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ Germany has 7 outlet centres. Why is Germany in the middle?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ It is very difficult to get the legal consent like in France. When you waste 700,000 € in legal costs, you understand that financial means and power are crucial to get to the final stages of getting a permit.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ Is it also different because of the structure, of the retail industry? Is it different in the UK than in Germany?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ Retail industry is changing in favour of the outlet industry since concession shops are less and less surviving to recession.



{{From the floor}}
_ The German mentality has also changed, it is today less shameful to go to an outlet.



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ It is still a bit shameful.



{{Robert VAN DEN HEUVEL}} (BVS Outlet villages)
_ Times have changed, the market is less hypersensitive about outlet factories. There are still political forces against factory outlets but this will change in time.



{{Henrik C.MARIS}}, Factory outlet consultancy
_ Factories are going to breakthrough and brands will need to hide under a name (such as Mac Arthur Glenn). Question is, how will the rules be bent? Will there be more of multi brand shops in one outlet centre or will there be more stand alone shops?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ It is a temporary problem due to a lot of new laws. 5000 square metres is still possible but you need a significant size. The mono label is the market of the future.



{{From the floor}}
_ And what about the development of outlet centres on city borders?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ There are possibilities in Germany like one city centre in Ettlingen next to Karlsruhe. Catchment is there with a beautiful historic city centre but there is no space (less than 2000 square metres).



{{From the floor}}
_ But then, retailers won’t want out-of-town outlets?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ That is what politicians aim at. They want a factory outlet in an underdeveloped city but it also means a centre without any attractiveness.



{{From the floor}}
_ It goes against the concept of factory outlet, against the idea of leisure activity. What do you think of East Germany?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ We have studied the markets and we do not believe in investing in areas like Dresden because spending power is very low and inner-city development is going up. There is too much retail space in the East and there is a different kind of consumption, consumers are not driven by brands like in the West.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ As a result of restrictions, Germany is neighbouring more outlet centres in France and Belgium. Is this trend going to get more serious in the next years?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ Belgium outlets centres attract many German customers: they are opened seven days a week, they are located only 30 minutes away from Düsseldorf. Soon in Salzburg, there will be a new outlet centre.



{{From the floor}}
_ The example of Salzburg is a huge undertaking that will turn a shopping centre into an outlet mall.



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ If this Austrian outlet is established, it will attract the German customers away from German outlets.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ Is Germany competitive enough in terms of its opening hours?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ Germany is competitive in comparison to The Netherlands where outlets close at 18pm but will need Sunday openings to be more competitive.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ The Internet is open 24 hours, 7 days a week. Does that represent a threat for outlet factory centre business?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ Internet is a real competitor for the retail market and within 6 months you can judge the efficiency of an internet platform by the sales of a top store.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ What kind of brands does a factory outlet centre in Germany need?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ A premium factory outlet centre focuses more on international luxurious brands (Gucci, Prada), and on mainstream brands to keep the frequency in the centre and its young customers. It also focuses on sports brands (Polo) and middle market brands (Tommy Hilfiger, Ralph Lauren) for which people will drive 1 hour to 1h30.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ There are no real designer brands in these outlet centres, so why is it called a ‘designer’ outlet centre?



{{From the floor}}
_ The aim is to define an outlet that is not a factory, but also offers good value retail brands. You need the mass and the class: the name ‘designer outlet’ attracts all of those.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ Do customers only come for the number of stores?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ Diversification of brands and proximity to transportation are crucial. The main focus is to make money on the main high street not in the outlet industry (Puma, Esprit) although it is a good business for retailers.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ Architecture is a sensitive issue, what kind of architecture represents the future for an outlet centre?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ Outlet centres need a combination of big box outlets (Bremen), a cosy city atmosphere and big surfaces but you do not need a Disneylike atmosphere.



{{From the floor}}
_ There is not one design. The Bremen concept works for certain retailers. Each outlet centre has to consider the league of the brands and then define its design.



{{Jörg NOWICKI}}
_ There are 7 factory outlet centres in Germany. How many new centres will be added?



{{Ulrich NORDHORN}}
_ Over the next 3 years, there may be 3 to 4 new permits for new outlet centres in Germany, in lower Saxony, in Otwurp, in Berlin, maybe in Neumünster.